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2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
22
   |
Posted - 2012.11.30 15:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm having 2nd thoughts about the warp-in change, where the plex button will be moved to 10km off the warp-in point, and would like help reconciling them. Moving it closer because people are too lazy to burn out 80km obviously isn't a good reason to change it, and after some thought I don't believe it will increase PVP either: Here's how i see it:
As it stands now, you've got a better than even shot that someone in the plex is not on the warp-in. Especially if they are offensive plexing. Even defensive plexers are often orbiting the plex button. It's much less likely they are sitting @ the entrance beacon (sitting @ zero). The new change allows a player to sit both on the plex button and @ zero. So the odds indicating where they will within the plex be have also changed.
Consider the following bit of game theory, where you warp to the plex gate and scan someone inside.
You are in a brawler: there are a 2 scenarios:
He is @ zero. Assuming roughly equal frigs and skills, you have a 50% shot at winning. (unless he's in a DD, no one would be stupid enough to warp into a DD sitting @ zero).
Or he's ranged, in which case you'll probably either lose, or have to warp out. Given the above scenario, if you warped in 100 times, I'd expect you to win about 35 of them (and that's generous). That's a meager 35% chance of winning.
You are range fit: there are a 2 scenarios:
He is @ zero. Assuming roughly equal frigs and skills, you will likely get wtfpwnzoredbbqstlye (especially if he's in a DD, and you're stupid enough to warp into a DD sitting @ zero). Let's call that a 10% chance of winning.
Or he's ranged, Assuming roughly equal frigs and skills, let's give you a even chance shot at winning. 50%.If you warped in 100 times given this scenario, I'd expect you to win about 30 times. 30% chance of winning.
Hmmm... it's a choice between a 35% chance of winning and a 30% chance of winning. The player in the plex has too much of an informational advantage. He knows how he is fit, and will always be able to engage at his range. This advantage amounts to the "House edge". A "House edge" doesn't increase gambling, it serves to cull the population to those that are either addicted, or can afford to lose, and eventually burns everyone.
Therefore, I don't believe moving the plex button closer will increase PVP, rather I predict it will decrease PVP. Warping into an occupant is now a a sucker's bet, relegated to those that aren't educated enough, yet, to know not to do it.
Based on that I would argue the plex beacon should have been moved a bit further out, left as-is, or somehow made so that a player outside on the gate may scan in to determine how far off the warp-in the occupant is.
Now, never let it be said I can't be sold the right idea. Am I thinking about this all wrong? I don't see me warping into defend or attack occupied plexes with the current set up. Any smart player would be wise to avoid them as well. Far too little upside as I see it. Especially if there's a DD in that "novice" plex (lol of the week), they seem pretty much immune to threats unless its unfair numbers. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
22
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 16:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cearain wrote:In sum, It's a good change for ganks but its a bad change for good fights.
in short less good fights = less fights and more bitching about bad ones.
not a good change. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
24
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Posted - 2012.11.30 16:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Meditril wrote:This change will definately boost brawling setups while kiting nano setup will get less frequent. Speed was very important in the past if you wanted to catch someone running the button. Now kiting will get hard, since it will get hard to get out of range of the brawler before he scram + webs you. At the moment I am not sure if this will be a good or a bad development. Lets wait and see.
well kiting fits within the plex seem just as viable as before. you can still sit 40km off the warp-in and be on the button if you want.
or you can still sit 100km off the warp-in (or outside gate) if you want, if you just want to harras would be plexers.
it's kiting fits that go into an occupied plex to attack the occupant or defend the plex that become much riskier.
i think waiting and seeing is a bad idea. it looks like it would take ~6 months for CCP to make a change again. i'd rather leave well enough alone |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
25
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 16:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
2manno Asp wrote:[quote=Meditril]This change will definately boost brawling setups while kiting nano setup will get less frequent. Speed was very important in the past if you wanted to catch someone running the button. Now kiting will get hard, since it will get hard to get out of range of the brawler before he scram + webs you. At the moment I am not sure if this will be a good or a bad development. Lets wait and see.
well kiting fits within the plex seem just as viable as before. you can still sit 40km off the warp-in and be on the button if you want.
or you can still sit 100km off the warp-in (or outside gate) if you want, if you just want to harras would be plexers.
it's kiting fits that go into an occupied plex to attack the occupant or defend the plex that become much riskier. or brawler fits doing the same, as you don't know how your opponent is fit. he could be ranged.
i think waiting and seeing is a bad idea. it looks like it would take ~6 months for CCP to make a change again. i'd rather have well enough left alone and see how all the other changes work out first, before throwing this one in with the rest of them. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
26
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 18:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:2manno Asp wrote:it's kiting fits that go into an occupied plex to attack the occupant or defend the plex that become much riskier. or brawler fits doing the same, as you don't know how your opponent is fit. he could be ranged.
The good fighters with close range fits burned to the warp in when a potential target was on short scan anyways. The "rabbits", and the ones unsure about how many opponents will blob them will be on the other side of the timer as far away from the warp in as possible.
well this has not been my experience.
normally, you've scanned the plex before warping to it, or while in warp, and have decided if you're going in or not. thus, you jump in right away if you've made the decision to.
almost everytime, you'll catch them on the plex button, if running the timer is what they were doing.
now if someone is the type of player that sits on the gate and has an internal debate about what to do, or you spend a few minutes checking up your opponents possible fittings before going in, or in some other way spend time sitting on the gate so as to be sure to get scanned, then ofc. you run the risk they'll be at their optimal when you go in... if you go in.
but that's why i don't do those things. giving the enemy thier optimal never seemed like a good idea to me. this new change will pretty much guarantee they'll have thier optimal no matter what you do. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
27
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 19:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Schalac wrote:So get there first then.
that's so obtuse i almost ignored it, as this whole post is about the guy that gets there 2nd... but i'll bite anyway..
what do you tell the guy that gets there 2nd? go plex somewhere else?
isn't that exactly what we're trying to avoid? |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
27
|
Posted - 2012.11.30 20:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:2manno Asp wrote:[quote=Schalac]what do you tell the guy that gets there 2nd? go plex somewhere else? Bring a bait ship and call for friends? Do that enough times and the guy camping the warp in may have second thoughts.
and to that i say what has already been said:
"In sum, It's a good change for ganks but its a bad change for good fights.
in short less good fights = less fights and more bitching about bad ones.
not a good change." |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
28
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 05:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:I think this is a good change.
You can still snipe as long as you get there 1st and blasters will now have a use.
Looking forward to it.
so... you're saying if there's someone in there, you're warping in? |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 05:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:By your own calculation, all you are doing is giving the same "home field" advantage to short range guys as has already been given to long range guys. Just sayin'
obviously, that's part of the whole point.
oh... and i'm not giving anyone anything. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
30
|
Posted - 2012.12.01 16:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Current distances are a bit excessive in minors and to a lesser extent mediums while largely OK in majors (BC up weapon ranges).
The "solution" that is being pushed does indeed sort out the excessive distances involved, but it does so by homogenizing competitive plexing fleets as you will be hard pressed to find anyone willing to go long due to it being suicidal except in cases where you are guaranteed to be 1st.
What they should have done was keep the plex differentiation to keep plexing 'fresh' (long term), that is done by keeping the current capture ranges and moving buttons closer to entry point based on something like 1.5-2.0x average range of expected/anticipated weapons ..
So a minor would probably be around 20'ish km (10km capture range which is well within reach of even the laziest brawler pilots).
Medium would be closer to 30-35km (15km ca.. see above).
Majors would be the current 40km+.
It is quite frankly a bad move that will do a lot more harm than good .. but it was likely chosen because it was easiest to do .. same button range, same capture range .. expect CCP to get a cease and desist from layers of the term "dumbing down" as they are walking all over its copyrights/trademark.
i like your idea on dynamic ranges for different plexes, and also agree how frustrating it is that CCP continues to demonstrate brilliance often, and then makes a seemingly half-baked, catch-all change like this that really affect the core of a very simple mechanic. plexing is to increase PVP.
this is immutable: it takes 2 to pew pew. this change seems to reward 1 player for getting a defensive spot in a plex, and punish any would be challenger for stepping up.
idk if i agree that the minor distances are really excessive. the distance allows a ship time to see a player enter the plex if he missed scanning him at the gate, and warp out if so inclined, or get to range if he wanted a fight.
CCP might consider dropping it to 40km-50km, but much more is an almost guaranteed scram for a brawler, unless he's asleep at the wheel.
i mean, it's 80km right now, not 800km. let's get real CCP. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 17:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Well i sort of like cearain's idea about a notification system, but i had posted my own version of it in some old post laying around here.
Basically you take the faction warfare map, and modify the color/shape code to the systems that it has now.
Instead of showing systems that are contested or vulnerable, it shows the systems that have enemies in their plexes.
Instead of the concentric rings around the contested systems as it is now, color or shape code them to let you know which type of plexes are occupied.
That way you know where to get a fight, without knowing too much.
The biggest problem i had with your suggestion Cearain, is that if I know you just entered a medium plex in your coercer, I'm coming in a ship fit to kill you, and 10 other people are likely independently making the same decision.
Consistenly having a train run on you by people that are fit to kill you wouldn't be much fun.
Back on topic, the plex button is getting old already. People just aren't coming in like they used to. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 18:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zen Guerrilla wrote:Before the patch i would sit on the button and move into my optimal as soon as i got a ship on shortrange dscan.
Now i have to move less.
So apart from the ships allowed into plexes, nothing has changed.
Rreally? I'm curious to know how many occupied plexes have you jumped into and how it worked out.
I avoid occupied ones unless I/we have numbers for reasons stated in the OP. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.05 22:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:2manno Asp wrote:Zen Guerrilla wrote:Before the patch i would sit on the button and move into my optimal as soon as i got a ship on shortrange dscan.
Now i have to move less.
So apart from the ships allowed into plexes, nothing has changed. Rreally? I'm curious to know how many occupied plexes have you jumped into and how it worked out. I avoid occupied ones unless I/we have numbers for reasons stated in the OP. Jumped into about 5. Died three times, won twice. Adapting.
well that's working as anticipated. lmk how you eventually adapt, assuming you just don't jump in. would like to know. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 02:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
well, i haven't lost as the guy starting in a plex yet.
they jump in, and oddly, they're always right where i want them. |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
32
|
Posted - 2012.12.06 03:28:00 -
[15] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:2manno Asp wrote:well, i haven't lost as the guy starting in a plex yet.
they jump in, and oddly, they're always right where i want them. So what has changed from before then?
you're right. i am awesome :) |
2manno Asp
The Imperial Fedaykin
35
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 01:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
i've lost only 1x as a defender. i had a jaguar into half armor with my hookbill, when ~5 others jumped in to help.
that new camera angle is fascinating /o\ |
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